Curse

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

PREFACE TO THIS POST:
TROLLS GO AWAY!
Also - I feel pretty strongly about some of the suggested changes (warriors, monks, eles). The other tweaks are just a brainstorm, and I don't feel so strongly about. Constructive ideas or constructive criticism _very_ welcome. I am updating this primary post as other good/better ideas come in that _I_ like better.

ORIGINAL POST (with additions or edits):
Primary attributes for some of the classes are NOT enough (in my opinion):
This post is organized from changes I think would be best, to some of the ones that are just pipe-dreams.

Warrior - Strength: Currently adds 1% per rank to armor penatration.
Should add:
1 % to armor penetration and 1% block percentage per point in Strength. others have suggested a 1/3 damage soak (stacking) per each point in strength.
Example: Warrior with 10 Strength would have 10% armor penetration and 10% block.

Monk - Divine Favor (this would be a biggy): Currently adds health on a variable scale. ~3 per point
Change suggested:
1 point party healing per 1 point divine favor for all monk spells. Replace the ~3 targetted divine favor bonus per point in divine favor. Helps deal with pressure situations.
Example:
Divine Favor 10 Monk casts Orison. Target recieves benefit of Orison, and whole party receives 10 health each.

Mesmer - Fast Casting - faster signet and spell activation
I don't play a lot of mesmer besides a little in PvP, so I don't know what I would change. The class already has some great variety and utility. Maybe a SLIGHT buff to skill recharge times (as a result of increasing the fast casting attribute) for the mesmer, and we'd see more of them in use. 1% faster recharge of spells and signets for each attribute point in Fast Casting.
Example:
Fast Casting 10 mesmer spells and signets would recharge 10% faster, in addition to the activation speed boost. 20 second recharge is now 18 second recharge. STACKING (stacks with MoR, and consumables like celerity).

Elementalist Energy Storage - currently increases energy pool
Actually, i don't know what I would do to Energy Storage attribute besides this. I view this as quite good. I considered armor penetration for spells, but lightning spells already address this.
After some replies perhaps this change:
1% of energy cost for spell returned after casting, in addition to energy pool increase currently in place. Another idea was 1 point lower exhaustion for every 3 points of e-storage.
Example:
Energy Storage 10 elementalist casts fireball. 1 energy (10% of spell cost), is returned.

Necro Soul Reaping -
Just remove the timer already. I haven't noticed energy issues with the timer, but a lot of people complain about it. It hurts my ears.

Assassin - Critical Strikes: Adds energy on a variable scale. Increases Critical %. (Self-Synergizing).
Should keep the energy attribute and add .5 damage per skill point on top of any hit that is critical.
Example:
Critical Strikes Rank 10 Assassin hits with his daggers, the hit is critical: 5 damage is added to the final damage (armor ignoring).

Paragon, Leadership -
Returns energy on shouts.
Would be nice to have:
Shouts return energy + Make the leadership attribute a passive "aura". When you are in the aggro bubble of a party paragon, damage reduction of 1/5 the points in leadership rounded down, and damage increase of 1/5 the points in leadership, rounded down. (Based on the highest leadership paragon in area - would not stack with other paragon auras). Also, all paragons would be immune to this effect (paragons get no benefits from it, ever, the idea is that the paragon is a leader... too many chiefs, not enough indians... you get the idea).
Example:
Leadership 10 Paragon with Aura - All party members (excluding paragon), have 2 damage soak, and +2 damage on every hit.

Ritualist- Spawning Power - Increase weapon duration and summoned creature life
I like the increased weapon duration that was added. I have not yet seen a HUGE benefit for increase spirit life. I'd like to see a little more - maybe just a hint of energy management from the attribute itself. I know there is a SKILL that does that in spawning power, but maybe giving a Rit something akin to the soul-reaping a necro had - but for spirits only. And only for THAT rit's spirits. Example: 1/5 energy return when a spirit ends for each point in spawning power. I know even that might be way to high. But it'd keep rits pumping spirits. It is called "SPAWNING" power. Not weapon power, etc etc. Or - perhaps a huge boost to the spirit life pools or armor. More like DOUBLE what is currently available.
example:
Spawning Power xx Ritualist casts a level 8 displacement that has 1000 hp and 60 armor. Maybe make displacement take more damage when something is blocked. This way the spirit isn't targetted for insta-destruction, but the protection must be "pounded" through. As it sits... Rits are interesting, but get anchored down so firmly, that they don't fit well in GvG and in a lot of the PvP builds. Sure, they are great for shrines... blah.

Finally - almost forgot this one:
Ranger - Expertise.
It's already really great imo. An interesting tweak would be to give a 1% speed boost to rangers for each point in expertise (stacking). Kind of in line with the shoot and run strategy used by many rangers. They are outdoorsmen for crying out loud! Give them legs to run! :-)
Maybe this would be too much. Just sharing "another" idea. Another idea was 1% block per each point of expertise.

Dervish, mysticism -
currently returns energy when enchantements end.
Add also that it gives a 1% chance per Mysticism Point to cause spells used against the dervish (offensively) to fail. This would keep nicely in line with Dervish class role.

Why all this? Primary attributes should be DEFINING. A lot of times, it seems like with even a slight planning, the primary attribute is not worth a lot. This has led to (creative) builds like N/Rt, N/Mo, Me/E, Mo/(e-management secondary). Which is great, but it might be nice to have unique class-boosting powers.

Some of these are just general theories, and most of this (or all), will never touch GW, because these affect the core of the game - primary classes.

Shouldn't stop me from sharing my opinion though. This idea mainly started with Warriors and Monks. I've always thought Strength was a "Meh" primary attribute... in fact besides the linked skills, strength was worthless. And divine favor... a little more healing... nice... but monks run out of energy. Even a slight hint of passive energy management would go a long way in monks ability to heal others.

Thanks for reading. What are your thoughts?

Nuclfus · Nov 14, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Interesting idea, and I like your reasoning that classes should have more definition by their primary attribute. The only attribute I personally would mess with is Strength (my opinion being Warriors have been nerfed a little more than necessary over the years), but it's nice to see someone who doesn't just pick his favorite class and rant nonstop about how it deserves better.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Interesting idea, and I like your reasoning that classes should have more definition by their primary attribute. The only attribute I personally would mess with is Strength (my opinion being Warriors have been nerfed a little more than necessary over the years), but it's nice to see someone who doesn't just pick his favorite class and rant nonstop about how it deserves better.

Warriors do need some primary attribute loving. Seriously. At first I thought that 2% penetration per point in strength would be good, but a 1% block really adds nicely to the idea of the warrior class, imo. Masters of armed combat, etc etc.

Monks, as a _heavy_ caster class, really need some e-management love.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

If these suggestions were followed, too many primaries would relate to energy management. The purpose of the primaries, as you say, is to define a class. Having every primary do the same thing removes the very individuality you seek.

mystical nessAL · Nov 14, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

warrior and the monk is bad..bad..bad idea. it should be each str gives you +1% more dmg. and monk should stay the same, all the challange is to keep your energy up

October Jade · Nov 14, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I think most people agree that Strength is terrible. However, the proposed change doesn't sit well with me; additional blocking seems much more suited to Tactics. I'd rather see a small multiplier for adrenaline gain. It will never happen though because, you know, it might allow an axe chain to occur one hit sooner and wtfpwn the "balance."

Divine Favor is energy management. The goal as a monk is to keep other party members alive and fighting, and DF makes doing so less expensive.

Soul Reaping: /agree. The timer is among the lamest and most arbitrary functions in the game. I would even be supportive of cutting the energy gain to half the current rate in order for this to happen. Necros frequently get overfilled anyway, and the excess benefit is just wasted.

Fast Casting needs something. Better recharge doesn't sound like enough, especially at only one percent per level. In pve FC yields practically no benefit and only serves to turn young mesmers into amateur elementalists. It doesn't help that most staple mesmer skills are 10e or higher.

I don't have enough experience with the four expansion professions to warrant comment.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical nessAL

warrior and the monk is bad..bad..bad idea. it should be each str gives you +1% more dmg. and monk should stay the same, all the challange is to keep your energy up

+1% AP is way more powerful than +1% Damage.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

If these suggestions were followed, too many primaries would relate to energy management. The purpose of the primaries, as you say, is to define a class. Having every primary do the same thing removes the very individuality you seek.

Well... maybe have monk divine favor be a party boosting effect. 1 point party healing per 1 point in divine favor, maybe 1.5 points, and drop the targetted 3 point divine favor boost. I'm just saying, the current boost to Divine Favor and Healing is a minimal concern for a monk primary. Yes, it boosts the points healed per energy spent ratio, but it's very minimal.

All a 1 energy passive return would do for a monk is help out during low and moderate pressure moments (casual play). During a heavy spike, or heavy pressure, the monk would still fold.

And ritualists spirits getting a REAL life boost. Shelter, displacement, and union die instantly in HM and PvP. Certainly faster than they can be cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another poster

I think most people agree that Strength is terrible. However, the proposed change doesn't sit well with me; additional blocking seems much more suited to Tactics. I'd rather see a small multiplier for adrenaline gain. It will never happen though because, you know, it might allow an axe chain to occur one hit sooner and wtfpwn the "balance."

I thought about the adrenaline gain buff, but it's so easy already to get 100% adrenaline gain boost and it caps at 100% in the current game mechanics. The block would only help warriors out versus things coming at them (swords, arrows, projectile spells) - a real boost to warriors. Makes them that much tougher, and certainly makes strength worth taking. Unless your build revolves around a strength skill, there is almost NO reason to take strength. A lot of great PvP and PvE uses Tactics, Weapon Skill, and secondary class branch. Strength is often ignored, and for a good reason. You can get WAY more utility and damage out of a secondary branch specced at 10 than you can get out of strength.

In GvG, a block percentage would help - it casts a "random" element into the called spikes. Let's spike that warrior, 2 1 now. Enchants stripped, Gale, Lightning Orb, Bulls Strike, Eviscerate, etc. But, Evisc was blocked. Warrior is still up. Monk heals. Battle goes on.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Aka you want a power creep. Or you could just get better at the game.

You are entitled to that wrong opinion of course. :-)

And sure, I could get better at the game. I'm an "average" player. I've cleared FoW (slowly). I've beat some areas of DoA (not mallyx). I've led a guild that was in top 1000 GvG (but not top 500). No, I'm not bragging, because all those claims aren't "great". I'm just saying, I've seen a little of everything.

I'm not pushing for a power creep. I just see some of the primary classes as passing fair.

The real discovery for me was that a N/Mo was FAR superior as a prot monk than a Mo/E or whatever else in PvE, and an E/Mo can be superior as a prot monk in PvP (in the right situations). And a Ele made a far better tank than a warrior (not in all instances, but in many). And mesmers appear to be quite rare in general.

And why SHOULDN'T assassins have a slight tweak to critical damage? They are assassins, they are supposed to be placing the dagger in the exact right spot and delivering a "killing" blow.

My suggestions are all pretty much in line - RP wise, and some would need some tweaking, but they aren't too imba.

The tweak to DF for monk that I like the most is to reduce the bonus, but make it party wide. Maybe that WOULD be too imba for PvP. But the obvious answer is that a monk would get increasing gains for a party in trouble. But smallish gains when just healing a spike using WoH. And, this would replace the void of useful party heals (of which I don't know any at this point in GW).

Alicendre · Nov 14, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaguard

The tweak to DF for monk that I like the most is to reduce the bonus, but make it party wide. Maybe that WOULD be too imba for PvP. But the obvious answer is that a monk would get increasing gains for a party in trouble. But smallish gains when just healing a spike using WoH. And, this would replace the void of useful party heals (of which I don't know any at this point in GW).

It's a bad idea IMO... DF doesn't need any changes, it's fine. But 10 pv more is... Well, nothing. Wanding someone does more damage...

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Or you could get better at the game and understand what I'm talking about. Stop trolling me.

Or you could stop assuming that every suggestion comes down to being made because the poster(s) are bad at the game.

Until you stop assuming this, I will call you (and others) on it wherever I see it, because it's a flawed and terribly perjorative assumption to make.

Mordakai · Nov 14, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

there are, of course, other Profession considerations: Armor, possible 16 in Attributes, and access to the Primary skillset.

The question is, does a Warriors armor and possible 16 in weapons outweigh the horrible Strength Primary "bonus."

I don't think Paragons need a buff, either!

Elementalists are actually quite bad. Ensign commented on this awhile back: having a large energy pool does little good in a protracted fight as energy goes low. Which is why Ele's always need enchantments to keep up with their huge energy losses. I don't know the answer either, I just know I'd rather have the Necro's ability to regain energy than a larger pool to start with.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alicendre

It's a bad idea IMO... DF doesn't need any changes, it's fine. But 10 pv more is... Well, nothing. Wanding someone does more damage...

I will defend my position:
Sure... 10 is "meh". But - assume a party is in heavy degen, or just took an AoE "hit". Now - that 10 becomes a total of 80 health for 0 extra energy. As opposed to the 33 targetted health Divine favor would currently give for 0 extra energy.
To expand:
Imagine 2 monks - 1 heal 1 prot.
prot monk has 13 DF
Heal monk has 13 DF
Heavy combat - both are spamming.
Prot monk drops out a RoF, a guardian, and an SoD (very quickly). Party was just healed for 39 health. Meanwhile, heal monk infused, and glimmered 2 targets. Another 39 party health for everyone. So for 0 extra energy, 8 people received 78 health each. Now do you see how it could even be claimed as IMBA for being too powerful?

Meanwhile the Prot monk spent 25 energy in 2-3 seconds, and the heal monk spent 20 energy in 2-3 seconds. And - provided a HUGE amount of healing and protection during that time.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Elementalists are actually quite bad. Ensign commented on this awhile back: having a large energy pool does little good in a protracted fight as energy goes low. Which is why Ele's always need enchantments to keep up with their huge energy losses. I don't know the answer either, I just know I'd rather have the Necro's ability to regain energy than a larger pool to start with.

Maybe return spellcost energy at a rate of 1% per skill rank in Energy Storage. (Decimal Rounded Down).
10 E-storage for a 10e spell = 1 energy return. 14 E-Storage for a 15e spell = 2 energy returned. 15 E-storage for a 20 energy spell = 3 energy returned. 16 E-storage and 25e spell = 4 energy returned.
Probably not the best, but it's a start.

Saraphim · Nov 14, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Elementalists are actually quite bad. Ensign commented on this awhile back: having a large energy pool does little good in a protracted fight as energy goes low. Which is why Ele's always need enchantments to keep up with their huge energy losses. I don't know the answer either, I just know I'd rather have the Necro's ability to regain energy than a larger pool to start with.

I'd agree with that, despite the fact that (when running my ele)I never have an energy pool of less than 92 I still have to devote two slots to e-management (GoLE and an attune) and also tend to use one more energy regain (such as Glowing Gaze), stick a rez sig on there and we have four offense / defense skills at best, (slot 7 for me is variable GoEP or whatever PVE skill is useful). E Storage as a primary does not help that much in a sustained fight. I rarely run out of energy, whether I'm running air or fire, but that's down to e-management rather than the size of my energy pool.

My necro on the other hand (even with the timer) hardly even needs to bother with e-management, I carry SoLS but rarely use it, and use a +15 -1 offhand. I don't MM though, mostly run curses, but I still rarely run low on energy.

Phoenix Tears · Nov 14, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

hmm, when i could change something, m primaries would do something, that changes the issues of 2ndaries being stronger than primaries, i mean with ttat, that an other primary with its secondary can be stronger, than the primary of the others primary secondary lol wtf write i here, dunno even if thats correct XD rofl..shit on it ^^

to my examples:

Strength: 1,5% Armor penetration per Point (16->24%*25%*)
Also 1 Damage Reduction of physical Attacks per 3 Points (15->5DR of physical Attacks)
Reason: You have more Strength, so also you can resist better Attacks.

Divine Favor: 3,2 more Heal per Point.
Every 2 Points additional +1,25% Morale will be given to a ressucrected party Member, when the Monk ressurects one (R16->10% Morale to the ressurected Character.
Just slow down this stupid DP System ...

Energy Storage:
beneath the additional + of Max Energy:
Energy Cost of Spells should be reduced by 4% per point also... like Ranger Primary for Bow Attacks,Spirits and Traps, this would reduce Energy Cost for Ele Spells

Soul Reaping:
beneath the Energy Gain...(Take away dumb time trigger)
Reduces every point the Recharge time of Summon Skills by 2%

Fast Casting:
Beneath the quicker usage of Signets and quicker reloading of Skills
this attribute should give per point 1% chance of Auto Reloading Spells.
(R16-> 16% Chance of automatically reloading Skills, after usage)

Mysticism:
Beneath Healing/Energy, when Enchants end,i think ,this attribute should receive Damage Reflection of Spells...
Also every point, 1% of Magic Spells Damage gets reflected to the Damage Dealer, while being enchanted.

Leadership:
beneath Energy Healing, this Attribute should increase duration of Shouts ect. and by 2% per point.
(R16->+32*33%* longer Duration of any Shout/Echo ect. Skills)

Spawning Power
Should increase bigger the max HP of Ghosts per point...
Every 3 Points, Ghosts should become more and more able to move...
Every 3 Points, Ghosts can move 25% quicker, ghosts should be invulnerable to normal physical attacks and ghosts CAN'T burn ... get logic into this game, also like pets have corpses, when they die >.>
However, making ghosts moveable shold be the biggest change

Example:
R0 > No Movement
R3 > 25% Movement of normal Speed (Ghost loses his chains)
R6 > 50% Movement of normal Speed
R9 > 75% Movement of normal Speed
R12 > same speed as Players
R15 > 125% movement speed

Criticals:
Beneath Energy Gain through criticals ...
Every point should increase the chance by 1% for Double Attacks or for avoiding self critical hits, hwich get then blocked, when they would be otherwise a critical hit

and the least one ..

the rangers primary:

beneath the e cost reduction of bow skills, traps, preparations ect., this Skill should increase the range of Bows by 1% per point and reduce also the chance to get interrupted every 3 points by 5%
(R16-> 16% longer range with bows)
(R16->25% lesser chance to get interrupted through attacks)

that would be my way to may the primaris look more special to their classes, improving the strength more of primaries over secondaries, maybe in resulting, that certain other primaries with a secondary can't be stronger, than a player with the primary of what player X has as secondary ...

Wannabes may not be stronger, than real ones (primaries)...

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 14, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Spirits need immunity to physicals at the very least. They're incorporeal. They also need movement or a faster cast time and much faster recharge time.

And Spawning Power needs an effect that actually does something besides add a few seconds duration to weapon spells or a few extra hp for spirits.

Pyro maniac · Nov 14, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

leadership
sr
expertise

buff already broken primary atts ..

it's fine

strenght is bad yes, but it has got the most skills in it = balance

nechronius · Nov 14, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

As someone has already not-so-mildly pointed out, this would lead to a power creep, which seems to be at odds with what they are trying to do with skills in general. Which is at odds with the PvE only skills.

Needless to say, things are rather confusing right now in general.

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

... see his earlier post - malagard...

I love the ritualist, dervish, and ranger suggestion.

I still like my warrior and monk tweaks better.

IMO the suggested Ele buff would be tooooo much